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 Post subject: Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms scenario
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2015, 08:24 
Peasant
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Joined: 18 May 2015, 01:57
Posts: 67
If I accidentally uploaded a new bundle version, don't use it..


I have been running the map through the ai tester a bunch, trying to make Cao Cao less of a bad with out splitting up his nation.. (Its not working)..


Is there something in particular that makes AI better or not?

Cao Cao is currently better in every single way starting out but he never does anything (like he barely builds any units, never really builds improvements.. etc).. While Sun Quan has a pretty standard start - yet just always wins, every time..


Edit:
Today I decided to try to just give him to much of a start (like one where playing as him = auto win).. and he can actually win...

He just needs 30,000 gold.. 30,000food, 5000 of each other resource.. and all his cities starting with all the commerce buildings + all the merchant techs.. + more... he sometimes can win..

I feel like I can't fix it though in a realistic way... Watching the AI tester is kinda interesting though..

The way the AI burns though resource though I do wonder what they are doing with it..


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 Post subject: Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms scenario
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2015, 16:30 
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Joined: 26 Dec 2007, 23:22
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That does seem odd. Have you tried starting him at war (or not) and also starting him with decent troops? Maybe changing the resources in his area?

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 Post subject: Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms scenario
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2015, 17:09 
Game Developer
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Joined: 17 Apr 2005, 02:34
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You got it! Based on your request, I have rejected your map. Just upload another one once you are ready. :kg:

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 Post subject: Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms scenario
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2015, 17:45 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 18 May 2015, 01:57
Posts: 67
noblemaster wrote:
You got it! Based on your request, I have rejected your map. Just upload another one once you are ready. :kg:


I thought I clicked it, that's good then.. I wanna spend a little more time with this Cao Cao issue before I upload it.. I might just need the right start for him..

TravisII wrote:
That does seem odd. Have you tried starting him at war (or not) and also starting him with decent troops? Maybe changing the resources in his area?


I tried to start him neutral (He starts in a 9 turn ceasefire and a war normally) with his op start, and he won in 137 turns (which is like super fast, cause while Sun Quan usually wins it takes him like 700 to 1000 turn mark (Test ends at 1000 turns but you know he was going to win).. then the second try it took him a bit longer but was going to win.

So I tried starting him neutral with his normal starting things (its not a nothing start).. An he went back to doing nothing much and get run over by anyone who picks a fight with him.. He always has positive resources (after some turns of going like 2000 gold in debt, probably researching idk)..

So I started it so everyone is in an alliance, and even with 140 turns to solve whatever issue might be there.. he never builds any units really (and I think deletes his starting army which is only some spearman in this test))..

But Sun Quan, if he takes over his land (and he often does).. the AI tester becomes pretty slow due to how many units he has..

The ai seems fine running a be nation if it builds the nation up itself.. but unless it has some big advantage, it doesn't seem like its very good at running it from the start..

I will try to play with his start a little more with him neutral and see if maybe just more income or maybe 3 of each resource per turn is enough to kick-start him to act like you'd expect..

Also need to skip through a bunch of turns in an actual game and see if he is building resource improvements at all (cause he isn't atm I think in the released one)..


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 Post subject: Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms scenario
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2015, 04:58 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 18 May 2015, 01:57
Posts: 67
I've come to the conclusion starting resources play a big part in if the AI builds things or does nothing..

But the amount the AI needs to function seems to be ridiculously high - if there starting nation is pretty big-..

He builds and wins with 50k resource start.. but fails with 25k resource start..

While I don't wanna necessarily start him with 50k of everything (Cause its silly).. It does seem to make him a threat/challenge so I think I'll keep it.. Until the AI is updated, and I'll try to re-balance him again..


... So.. Solved?... sorta..

Now I can go back to seeing if I need to adjust the new/third scenario..


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 Post subject: Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms scenario
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2015, 06:04 
Investigator
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Joined: 06 Jul 2008, 18:23
Posts: 3831
Location: Planet Earth, most of the time.
Caprontos wrote:
I've come to the conclusion starting resources play a big part in if the AI builds things or does nothing..

But the amount the AI needs to function seems to be ridiculously high - if there starting nation is pretty big-..

He builds and wins with 50k resource start.. but fails with 25k resource start..

While I don't wanna necessarily start him with 50k of everything (Cause its silly).. It does seem to make him a threat/challenge so I think I'll keep it.. Until the AI is updated, and I'll try to re-balance him again..


... So.. Solved?... sorta..

Now I can go back to seeing if I need to adjust the new/third scenario..

Interesting. From what you wrote I would agree with you, 50k sounds like to the a good balancing number. However, I am curious. Have you tired using small increments, such as 45, 40, 35... or did you see no noticeable/measurable change when making small increments?


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 Post subject: Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms scenario
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2015, 07:56 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 18 May 2015, 01:57
Posts: 67
fodder wrote:
Interesting. From what you wrote I would agree with you, 50k sounds like to the a good balancing number. However, I am curious. Have you tired using small increments, such as 45, 40, 35... or did you see no noticeable/measurable change when making small increments?


While 30k seemed similar to 25k.. Then I decided weather he starts with 50k or 40k or whatever, it doesn't really matter. He is already op when controlled by a human. The ai is only so effective.... The main goal was to make him build units.. and build improvements..

If it can give a challenge when playing as the other factions (I haven't tested that yet but will try to).. Then I think its worth leaving for now.

If he builds units like he did in the first test, you'll have a bad day.. If he does it like other tests he'll be pretty manageable..



With a normal start, he was more like this:

http://i.imgur.com/3VpE8pc.png

I think thats an alliance start, with regular resources.. But you can see how many Purple and Orange guy has made.. (Red guy in like 20 turns from this image just exploded in troops and more or less began to win)...

But the blue guy (IE Cao Cao) - has 1 unit.. and that's pretty much all he ever had.. And despite having plenty of resources to build farms.. He never built any. So he didn't have foods.. So low food income = no units.. And he just gets divided up..

So with a 50k start, and starting in a war this happens:
He starts by losing:
http://i.imgur.com/NMCWK3P.png

But then he decides to build units:
http://i.imgur.com/fJFohDc.png

And he proceeds to win:
http://i.imgur.com/LvtgeYK.png
http://i.imgur.com/8sHdL86.png
http://i.imgur.com/fTstjFY.png
http://i.imgur.com/FcRNzXS.png

And he won like 20 turns after this one:
http://i.imgur.com/jw9aD6A.png

Now randomness exists, so sometimes he doesn't do as well.. But this is basically what I want him to do if left unchecked to long..

Its not ideal but.. For now it will do.. I am sure the AI will get improvements and changes, which will no doubt allow for a better solution..


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 Post subject: Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms scenario
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2015, 08:36 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 18 May 2015, 01:57
Posts: 67
I uploaded another bundle update. Though when I did it this time I got, error obtaining input stream. idk what this means exactly..

Changes:

-I fixed the dates... For whatever reason my brain thought it was BC, despite it clearing going backwards.. but fixed now!..

-I changed the naming also, now scenarios will be named (and listed) by the date the scenario starts in. If you feel this needs another look I will consider it..

-Added a third scenario set during Dong Zhou's rise to power. (Some of these faction starts... Well Good luck with that..)

-Temporally changed Cao Cao's starting benefits to make him more of a threat in the 211 scenario. This however makes him even more op if a human is in control of him... I haven't actually done to many tests to see what kinda challenge this created.. But I will for the next update by re-playing it with this one.

-Added a new invention.. It should increase newly built troops experience by 20% (I'd like thoughts on this for any who try). You can research it after you have researched all other military units..

-Removed a bridge in the southeast, and replaced it with a bridge build spot (I think :D)..

-Everyone now starts with agriculture, as it's not really needed in this map.. This may change for some scenarios.. An issue here however is.. The ai likes to build less effective farms, Not sure why but...

-Added the bakery to every city to try to deal with an odd AI issue on the 211 scenario (This might be reverted, but for now it is there).

-Changed the cost to upgrade buildings to be 50/50 wood/stone of the original price (I'd like thoughts on this for any who try). I may try a 25% wood 75% stone split in some tests.. but for now it will stay this. Personally I felt this was letting be build up cities a bit easier..

-Rebalanced weather again, Not sure its right but any comments are welcome.. Atm it is basically..

North of the north river is where it can snow. (Unchanged more or less)

Below the south river (mostly) is a rotation of drought and wet, Based on AI tests, it seems pretty good...

The central plains (and for now the western mountainous areas) are good on water unless there is a long drought..

Droughts should last between 1-5 turns and reduce water levels, 20-100%.. If they feel to often I can adjust this. Based again on the ai tests.. it looks ok.. Due to it being completely random You may or may not get punished by it....

Maybe other things I forgot...

As usual any thoughts on this bundle feel free to say, I'll consider it.


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 Post subject: Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms scenario
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2015, 16:49 
Game Developer
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Joined: 17 Apr 2005, 02:34
Posts: 8384
Location: Honolulu
Changes looking good!

What the error uploading the bundle concerns: I recently switched to a new networking-client library. Seems like the timeout-values are not set correctly. Let me fix!

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 Post subject: Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms scenario
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2015, 04:09 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 18 May 2015, 01:57
Posts: 67
Uploaded a minor update, that just makes cities regen.


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 Post subject: Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms scenario
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2015, 18:22 
Game Developer
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Joined: 17 Apr 2005, 02:34
Posts: 8384
Location: Honolulu
Approved :kg:

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