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 Post subject: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2018, 01:43 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 29 Apr 2018, 21:55
Posts: 36
I will try to start this story from very beginning.

There is quite new player called Miguel93 who was doing 1v1 bet games few weeks ago. I was good buddy of him and was watching at his fate. The setup of these games was like that: Anno 1200 (31) (not full), no AI and everything else default. He was doing a lot of these games and I was playing sometimes with him but mostly watching him. And one day I invited Jacob to his 1v1 and they played. Miguel was playing Papal State or Serbia(I don't remember exactly) while Jacob has choosen some nation at East(might be horde). Clearly with such choices Miguel had advantage as he was closer to center of map and so could grab more of the map and also he could take most populated cities very early. Jacob has noticed that and said it was unfair. But we answered to him that it was his own choice and if he chosen another nation like Serbia or HRE or something else it would be balanced. Jacob said that it was ok and let Miguel to continue his games. But Jacob mentioned that its unfair if players do not know about setup which I agree with. (its not related but Miguel was pretty good player and has won some top players in those 1v1 games and elo fall of one famous player is related to Miguel lol )

Then one day I found that Miguel93 was banned. I tried to figure out and I believe what happened is next: maybe someone reported on Miguel or maybe not but Miguel was unverified for his 1v1 games and he discussed that with mods trying to get verified and has cursed mods in the process(I guess mods refused) and was banned for that. I agree that Miguel has crossed the line by cursing and this ban is totally just. This part of story about reasons of ban might be not 100% true but its likely to be so. If someone knows more about this pls tell.

So after that I started doing the 1v1 games in exactly same setup. But there is one important difference between how I and Miguel setup this game. When I was meeting new or unexperienced players I was telling them rules of setup and game. I was telling them that it is 1v1 and there is no AI and every other nation will disappear after games starts. I was telling them to choose nation carefully and consider position and population. I was recommending them good picks. And finally I was telling them that I am pretty good player ;) . Of course I did not tell all these to veteran players like ProByron and feridazr.

This way I played many games and everything was fine. I was attracting players by writing in lobby "join 1v1. gang up is impossible in 1v1. easy coins" and once they enter game I was telling them rules of setup and advises before start. Many were coming to my games but only few actually joining after I explained them staff. But I still had good amount of 1v1 50 bet games. One time Jacob visited me and said that its sad that I went Miguel's way but he did not say that it is illegal and did not punish me. And everything went as usual. Until one sad game...

Player with nick Pokemaster420mlgfam has come to my game and I explained him rules as usual. But he ignored my recommendation picks and said that he is very good player. I said ok lets play, you will probably win if you are that good. Still he picked pretty decent nation with which I have won in past and by which I was won in past. But he wasn't as good as he said and lost that game. After that he went in rage and accused me that I scammed him. Then he pm me that he will report me. Then my account was unverified. Notice that mods did not even try to figure out the situation and did not ask me any question. They did not try to learn this situation from my point of view. They know everything without investigation. The reporter is right just because he is reporter. They just unverified me. Also they took 50 coins which I have won)

Of course I started to argue with mod(Jacob) about situation and have said him everything about the way I set up game. We had long argument. To be honest I was crushing the mod in this argument as I was answering every single argument mod said me while he avoided to answer any of my key arguments. To avoid he was trying to change focus or use phrases like "its already decided by all mods" or "refer to guide" but he was not answering my arguments. He could not prove that what I did is unfair in anyway. He could not prove that my setup is unfair in anyway.And still he refused to accept that I did not anything wrong. Is it fair if you are winning whole tribunal process and at the end judge just say you that you has lost?

At the end he said that I should to go to NobleMaster for resolution. I PMed Noble in game but he did not answer for several days and I decided to write about this case here.

By the way this player has called me with offensive word(not the most offensive but still) in pm so I could report on him for that) Also he is 11 years old and he confirmed that in pm

P.S. Miguel's ban has finished recently and I hope he knows that he had not constant ban and he did not delete game because he did not know that.

P.P.S. Sorry for long text


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2018, 14:17 
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: 14 Dec 2011, 21:25
Posts: 445
The Miguel93 ban was not related to this issue. He was banned for majorly abusive language towards moderators which was about a completely different subject than the one above. In regards to you being unverified. You were aware that is was a good way to farm coins unfairly, were aware of what Miguel was up to and were aware of its unfairness and decided to copy him. I told you if it continued we would close down the loophole. Please refer to the player guide, Appendix - Online Policy section where it states that making unfair games is against the rules and accounts can be closed because of that reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2018, 17:24 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 29 Apr 2018, 21:55
Posts: 36
Jacob if you have read carefully what I wrote then you would notice that I mentioned that Miguel was banned for saying offensive things to mods and that I don't know everything 100% true about Miguel's ban.

Jacob, I don't know that what I did is unfair(so don't try just to say that I know). Quite opposite I believe it is fair. And again you are trying to avoid to describe where it is unfair.

And again I have seen that section but to apply this rule you has to prove that this game was unfair. So where is unfairness in my setup? How what I did is unfair? Also notice that there is important difference in the way Miguel and I setup these games. (Which I also wrote above)


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2018, 20:08 
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: 14 Dec 2011, 21:25
Posts: 445
It's unfair because you select a nation that will be surrounded by lots of population in Central Europe. The secondary player joining seeing your location will join a nation further out to avoid starting near you and likely end up in a corner of the map with less population. The player is unaware that all of the nations that are there at joining will disappear at game start. So when game starts you have plenty of cities to expand to while the secondary player has less population centres to capture. You knew this was the case and knew it was unfair. The mods were already discussing shutting down the scheme when we received a complaint from a player who felt they had been ripped off, and had not been warned in the way you claim in regards the dangers of such a game setup. We decided to unverify you to stop this happening in the future. You knew what you were doing was questionable. Please do not blame us for your actions. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2018, 21:35 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 29 Apr 2018, 21:55
Posts: 36
Are you just joking or are you really did not read my post? I said that I warn players about EVERY detail of game setup and recomend countries which will be equally strong. Also I already said it to you several times in game mail.

Thats what I was complaining about: moderator just completely ignores my arguments.


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 03:10 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 29 Apr 2018, 21:55
Posts: 36
Jacob why did you delete your post just before this one? Are you not ready to take responsibility for your words or do you just want me to look like fool answering to your post which you deleted? Anyway in this post Jacob wrote that reporter said that I did not tell rules to him. Also Jacob called me unfair player and that he would rather beilive to reporter. My next words refer to post which Jacob has deleted. The timeline is like that: Jacob posted, I answered with this post, Jacob deleted his post then I added this paragraph in response to Jacob's deletion.

Don't call me unfair player until you prove that its true.

About who you bealive: yeah, exactly, from very beginning you have just fully beilived to reporter. You did not try to ask me anything to learn situation more. You just punished me right away. You know everything without any investigation, don't you? Also are you aware that this player is 11 years boy? I report that after losing fair game this kid went to rage and slandered me to get his revenge.

But anyway if this kid says that I did not explain him rules(which I call lie) then our case has two key questions which we need to answer:

1. If both players are fully aware about rules and setup of such 1v1 game is it fair? In another words if I would have actually explained him everything about rules and setup is it fair game?

2. Did I actually explained him the rules and everything?

If the answer to ANY of these two question is no(if its unfair or I did not explain him) then I am guilty. If answer to BOTH of these questions is yes (it is fair and I explained to this kid) then I am innocent. There is no point to answer second question before first one. So Jacob, what do you answer to first question? If you answer "not fair" then be kind and explain why it is not fair otherwise your answer is worthless. And pls account all my arguments in first post as you was totally avoiding it before.


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 12:13 
Investigator
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Joined: 06 Jul 2008, 18:23
Posts: 3831
Location: Planet Earth, most of the time.
aibar, I see where you are coming from and it's good that you took the effort to explain the rules and be helpful to players with less experience. However, the point Jacob was making was prior to your situation. That being what Jacob, described as a loophole. The team of moderators felt that any player, regardless of explanation of rules, etc. was still exploiting a loophole. Jacob felt you were already aware of this based upon past discussion. Therefore, when the rule was amended your current play style, now fall under that amendment, regardless of your changes from Miguel.

Think of it like this. I invite someone to fight me. In front of them is a table of weapons. A knife, a pistol, a shotgun, a crossbow and a hand grenade. They can choose any weapon they want. However, I'm already sitting in a tank. Sure a very good player with some luck may still win but the odds of me winning are better.

Let me ask you a question. When you set up these games and explain the rules. Are you always starting in the same city?


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 14:10 
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: 14 Dec 2011, 21:25
Posts: 445
I had no idea you were online at the time, I deleted it as I thought afterward "what was the point" and it would probably just make you more irate. Who am I to believe, the person setting up unfair scenarios, or the person reporting he got ripped off? Also it wasn't my idea to unverify you or take away your coins so reflect on that please.


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 14:52 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 29 Apr 2018, 21:55
Posts: 36
Fodder, fair point. I usually sit in Papal State but not always. I beilive that Papal is slightly better then other best picks but the difference is not as huge as tank and handgun. If my opponent takes good pick and he is at least decent player then its always close fight. And I was winning fighting against PS and was won by other good picks when was PS. And my opinion that PS is best is not shared by all good players. Some other veterans believe that other countries then PS is best pick. And not any of rated or tournament classic maps are perfectly balanced. Some are pretty balanced but not perfect. Its very hard to make perfectly balanced not symmetrical map.

But anyway if it is a problem I can give my opponents first pick in future or give them choice who takes first pick and that should solve that problem.

About loophole: but our whole life is loophole) everyday we wake up do many same things and go to sleep. Even Nature itself in loophole) Sun, seasons, lifecycle, animal behavior everything is. But consider something closer to case: a fair worker working his legal job and gets his salary periodically. Should we punish him for that? I hope not as long as his job is legal. Or take casino which plays fair(which is unrealistic but lets imagine fair casino) should we punish players who regularly play at casino just because it creates loophole?

Jacob, again, prove that its unfair before calling it unfair pls. And any decent judge doesn't automatically take someone's point of view just because stereotypes and who they are. And in this case I wouldn't say that stereotypes on reporter's side as he is kid in transitional age and you still couldn't prove that scenario is unfair.


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 15:11 
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: 14 Dec 2011, 21:25
Posts: 445
We both know the scenario is unfair given the fact the map scenario you have chosen very much favours population in a certain area. If your motives were not to be unfair you would of chosen a map scenario with an even distribution of population.


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 16:55 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 29 Apr 2018, 21:55
Posts: 36
T be fair you are right that it is good idea to setup those games in even distribution maps. I haven't even thought about that. But your claim about unfairness of standard uneven pop distribution map is wrong. If both nations were picked carefully there is equal availability to high pop and it creates good competition for grabbing cities. It does not add unbalance and just add more interesting gameplay and decision making.


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2018, 15:12 
Investigator
Investigator
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Joined: 06 Jul 2008, 18:23
Posts: 3831
Location: Planet Earth, most of the time.
aibar wrote:
Fodder, fair point. I usually sit in Papal State but not always. I beilive that Papal is slightly better then other best picks but the difference is not as huge as tank and handgun. If my opponent takes good pick and he is at least decent player then its always close fight. And I was winning fighting against PS and was won by other good picks when was PS. And my opinion that PS is best is not shared by all good players. Some other veterans believe that other countries then PS is best pick. And not any of rated or tournament classic maps are perfectly balanced. Some are pretty balanced but not perfect. Its very hard to make perfectly balanced not symmetrical map.

But anyway if it is a problem I can give my opponents first pick in future or give them choice who takes first pick and that should solve that problem.

About loophole: but our whole life is loophole) everyday we wake up do many same things and go to sleep. Even Nature itself in loophole) Sun, seasons, lifecycle, animal behavior everything is. But consider something closer to case: a fair worker working his legal job and gets his salary periodically. Should we punish him for that? I hope not as long as his job is legal. Or take casino which plays fair(which is unrealistic but lets imagine fair casino) should we punish players who regularly play at casino just because it creates loophole?

You are quite correct, it very difficult to make a "perfectly" balanced map. However, as you mentioned to Jacob. You can play on a map that is better balanced.

You also mentioned that you could offer the player first choice. While I don't speak for everyone, that sounds reasonable to me. I would also find it acceptable that both players must play the game/map twice. Where the rule is: whatever town you pick must be played by the other player in the second game and whatever town the second player picks must then be played by you. Of course this rule needs to be known before the game and both players are committed to playing a second game, regardless of the outcome of the first game. Just an idea.

Casinos, don't get me started. :headbash: I'll leave it at that.


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2018, 16:05 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 29 Apr 2018, 21:55
Posts: 36
Ok, Fodder, I agree to those terms) This argument lasts for too long. I missed so many slow bet games I wanted to join( Can I be forgiven and enjoy freedom?

Also one player has advised that it can be random countries. I guess its fair setup? Your start position just depends on your luck


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2018, 16:11 
Investigator
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Joined: 06 Jul 2008, 18:23
Posts: 3831
Location: Planet Earth, most of the time.
This would have to be discussed with the team. It's not solely up to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Legalization of 1v1 bet games and some kid has slandered me
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2018, 17:03 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 29 Apr 2018, 21:55
Posts: 36
Thanks for considering)


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